In response to the feminization of churches a new men’s movement has been gaining brawn. The GodMen have had two conferences thus far that have attracted hundreds of men. Founder Brad Stine explains that a goal of GodMen is to produce “a man who believes in honesty and integrity and strength and leadership and the knight in shinning armor.”[i] Their website describes the event as a place where men can discuss real issues such as passivity, isolation, and pornography “in a safe environment.”[ii] The events, which include worship, have powerful sound systems and huge video screens showing he-man videos like martial arts displays and car chases.[iii] GodMen definitely aims for more muscle rippling than Promise Keepers, but they haven’t completely distanced themselves from the older and well establish organization.
As a link on the GodMen website indicates, they have aligned themselves with Promise Keepers for the time being. This may be a good idea for reaching likeminded men who have already expressed a desire to assemble with other Christian men, but it would be a bad idea not to disassociate themselves from Promise Keepers as soon as they are established. There are peculiarities to the Promise Keepers organization that act to exacerbate the problems that are emasculating the church.
In the name of unity, Promise Keepers emphasizes the breaking down of denominational walls of separation, and this fosters the spirit of Ecumenism. The result of this leveling action actually elevates those denominations that hold compromised doctrines; and which include the complete capitulation of men, or the acceptance of homosexuality as God’s design. Additionally, the Ecumenists themselves are opposed to developing strong male leadership because the spread of Ecumenism is contingent upon spiritually weak followers living compromised lives in want of religious approval.
What the future holds for GodMen depends on what Christian doctrines they hold, and how close they hold them. For now, there appears to be an overwhelming reliance on testosterone. The lineup of tunes for GodMen events includes: “Testosterone High,” and “Grow a Pair!”[iv] Stine claims that men “get to be real and raw” at these events,[v] but his exclamation at a 2006 conference seems a little too raw: “Thank God for our Testosterone!”[vi] Is this what the feminization of churches has driven men to?
Endnotes (at rest of entry):
[i] Lillian Kwon, “Christian Men Seek Lost Masculinity,”
The Christian Post. March 20, 2007.
http://www.christianpost.com/article
/20070320/26428_GodMen_Toughens_Up_Christian_Men.htm.
[ii] GodMen, “When Faith Gets Dangerous,” Website.
http://www.godmen.org/about.htm (accessed March 21, 2007).
[iii] Eilenn Finan, “Real Men Talk About God“:
A new Christian movement lets guys be guys,
Newsweek, Web Exclusive. October 30, 2006.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15488905/site/newsweek/page/1/.
[iv] Finan, “Real Men Talk About God”.
[v] Kwon, “Christian Men Seek Lost Masculinity”.
[vi] Ibid.
David, my e-mail is mspcrick@msn.com
Most of these “knight in shining armor” men’s ministries are compromised. I personally would like to see a wave of prayer gatherings for men that beseech the Lord more than address “men’s issues”. God’s issues are men’s issues and a crucified following of the Lord Jesus knows no gender.
You are free to use any portion of any of my writings, just let me know. I will visit you here from time to time.
Rick (my nickname)
David, my e-mail is mspcrick@msn.com
Most of these “knight in shining armor” men’s ministries are compromised. I personally would like to see a wave of prayer gatherings for men that beseech the Lord more than address “men’s issues”. God’s issues are men’s issues and a crucified following of the Lord Jesus knows no gender.
You are free to use any portion of any of my writings, just let me know. I will visit you here from time to time.
Rick (my nickname)
We have 600 years of the ‘feminization’ of Jesus. Think of the pictures we saw of him growing up. He is always portrayed as looking like some handsome earthy hippie. I do not know if this is a fact but I heard Paul Washer say that most of our ‘Christian’ Art from the past was created by homosexuals.
I agree with Rick. What they need are less ‘men’ issues and more praying. Dittos for ‘womens issues’.
Every backlash is taken to it’s opposite extreme. It is kind of sad really. Men getting together so they can ‘act’ like men?
We have 600 years of the ‘feminization’ of Jesus. Think of the pictures we saw of him growing up. He is always portrayed as looking like some handsome earthy hippie. I do not know if this is a fact but I heard Paul Washer say that most of our ‘Christian’ Art from the past was created by homosexuals.
I agree with Rick. What they need are less ‘men’ issues and more praying. Dittos for ‘womens issues’.
Every backlash is taken to it’s opposite extreme. It is kind of sad really. Men getting together so they can ‘act’ like men?
misprint. My e-mail is spcrick@msn.com
misprint. My e-mail is spcrick@msn.com
I agree with Rick. Prayer is missing big time in most Chrisitan’s walks. Genuine revival is what is most called for and that isn’t going to happen outside of prayer. When men become totally sold out to their Lord, doing God’s will, and being totaly obedient to the Lordship of Jesus Christ they will also be spirit-filled and that means they will be the men God designed them to be. Likewise for women. Spirit-filled women submit to their husbands. Spirit-filled men love their wives as Christ loved the church. Therefore, a call to genuine revival is far more needed than another men’s group where they can hide in large numbers.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
I agree with Rick. Prayer is missing big time in most Chrisitan’s walks. Genuine revival is what is most called for and that isn’t going to happen outside of prayer. When men become totally sold out to their Lord, doing God’s will, and being totaly obedient to the Lordship of Jesus Christ they will also be spirit-filled and that means they will be the men God designed them to be. Likewise for women. Spirit-filled women submit to their husbands. Spirit-filled men love their wives as Christ loved the church. Therefore, a call to genuine revival is far more needed than another men’s group where they can hide in large numbers.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
David,
Thank you for your post. It is difficult to criticize motivated, morally-minded men who assemble under the “church ” banner. However, when we are assemble out of a response to a participant demographic report (60% women making up the church), we dive into the waves of pragmatism. We then join the ranks of the church growth folks who are also driven by marketing and performance metrics, under the “church” banner, appealing to the psychological needs of the audience.
Embracing testosterone and manhood may be appropriate in a fraternal organization.
But our church family, the Bride of Christ, is not a fraternal organization. It is the broken, contrite heart that God demands. There is nothing more masculine, nothing more feminine for that matter, than a broken vessel of a man or woman indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
Ecclesiastes 9: 14 describes a little city with a few men in it…
14 There was a little city with few men in it, and a great king came against it and besieged it, building great siegeworks against it. 15But there was found in it a poor, wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city. Yet no one remembered that poor man. 16But I say that wisdom is better than might, though the poor man’s wisdom is despised and his words are not heard.
If we want to see more men in our church families, we must start with the men that are there. If the pastor and elders are faithful to The Word of God, then the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit will be their strength and strong tower. If the church family is really a New Testament Church family, the encouragement, fellowship and accountability will exist.
You won’t have to go to a coliseum or join an organization.
God bless
Jim
David,
Thank you for your post. It is difficult to criticize motivated, morally-minded men who assemble under the “church ” banner. However, when we are assemble out of a response to a participant demographic report (60% women making up the church), we dive into the waves of pragmatism. We then join the ranks of the church growth folks who are also driven by marketing and performance metrics, under the “church” banner, appealing to the psychological needs of the audience.
Embracing testosterone and manhood may be appropriate in a fraternal organization.
But our church family, the Bride of Christ, is not a fraternal organization. It is the broken, contrite heart that God demands. There is nothing more masculine, nothing more feminine for that matter, than a broken vessel of a man or woman indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
Ecclesiastes 9: 14 describes a little city with a few men in it…
14 There was a little city with few men in it, and a great king came against it and besieged it, building great siegeworks against it. 15But there was found in it a poor, wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city. Yet no one remembered that poor man. 16But I say that wisdom is better than might, though the poor man’s wisdom is despised and his words are not heard.
If we want to see more men in our church families, we must start with the men that are there. If the pastor and elders are faithful to The Word of God, then the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit will be their strength and strong tower. If the church family is really a New Testament Church family, the encouragement, fellowship and accountability will exist.
You won’t have to go to a coliseum or join an organization.
God bless
Jim
Like the other commenters, I’m no longer impressed with the modern church’s approach to dealing with it’s own problems. Often they only lead to more difficulties. This newest group appears to offer nothing more than the PK “pep rally” philosophy to ministring to Christian men. Until men in the church are willing to confront the sin in their lives, repent from it, and become biblically accountable before God and their fellow man, I fear all the videos of martial arts and car chases in the world won’t help.
Like the other commenters, I’m no longer impressed with the modern church’s approach to dealing with it’s own problems. Often they only lead to more difficulties. This newest group appears to offer nothing more than the PK “pep rally” philosophy to ministring to Christian men. Until men in the church are willing to confront the sin in their lives, repent from it, and become biblically accountable before God and their fellow man, I fear all the videos of martial arts and car chases in the world won’t help.
To all:
I have invited the men, and women, who have commented here to do so. I know them by their ministries to be solid Christians who could give godly advice. They have taken time from their busy schedules to respond, and they have my deepest appreciation and thanks for their valuable time and wisdom. Their contributions to this topic of men’s ministries, and the formation of such groups, as is the subject of the cover article, has proved insightful and profitable for recap here:
As Henry has pointed out: In all movements with a collateral qualifier such as men’s, women’s, single’s, and teen’s, there is the high risk of making these ancillary issues of gender, age, and maturity the focus. These themes can become the indispensable cores for perpetuating the movement, and this minimizes the one who is supposed to be at the center of it all. The effect is that men will move for the sake of being men, in the power of their brawn, and not for the sake of being Christ’s, and in the power of his might.
As Lindon has pointed out: The history of civilization back to the cross is a history of attacks on God’s word, the saints, and has included the feminization of not only the church but of Jesus Christ Himself. Certainly, it is one of Satan’s battle fronts in the war against the church, and is an attack on God’s hierarchy, order, and design; with emphasis draining power form the church any way that he can. The answer is not being a man for the sake of being a man, and rallying around a hormone.
As Mike has pointed out: The quest for both sexes is to be spirit-filled so that they can live by God’s design, and in God’s power. A genuine revival would include both, and is certainly needed today. It is not going to happen without obedience and prayer.
As David has pointed out: The materialization of these types groups can be a result of a void or vacuum in the local church, and so is a symptom of the modern church, and not the cure for it. The cure comes by repentance: confronting sin in our lives, and turning from it toward God, and relying on His strength for the victory. This action by men in the local church will change the local church. Pep rallies won’t do it.
Let me add: If there can be a profitable outcome from Christian men’s movement, it would be the training up of preachers of the gospel and pastors. Men who would go forth, and could say “And my speech and preaching not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1Cor. 2:4-5). It is a lament, a disgrace of the modern church, that with congregations running in the thousands their pastors, who teach them for years over several services a week, are unable to raise up preachers and pastors from these crowds: Men who could provide for healthy, local churches. But this lends to another topic.
If indeed we have out there Christian men who, at any time, have it in their hearts to separate themselves from things contrary to God, and to assemble to Glorify His name, seek His will, and worship Him; then we have, and are obliged to take, this small opportunity, in forums such at this one, to come alongside and minister to these brothers in Christ. That is what I have been fortunate to see here, godly men and women who are running the race, and fighting the fight, and taking time from their precious reserves, as master builders, and adding to that which will be tried, shown to be pure, and last forever. We are not beating the air here.
Any man who is seeking an answer, or to contribute, whether from GodMen or other such group, or no group, is welcome post on this topic
David
TheNewsBeats.com
To all:
I have invited the men, and women, who have commented here to do so. I know them by their ministries to be solid Christians who could give godly advice. They have taken time from their busy schedules to respond, and they have my deepest appreciation and thanks for their valuable time and wisdom. Their contributions to this topic of men’s ministries, and the formation of such groups, as is the subject of the cover article, has proved insightful and profitable for recap here:
As Henry has pointed out: In all movements with a collateral qualifier such as men’s, women’s, single’s, and teen’s, there is the high risk of making these ancillary issues of gender, age, and maturity the focus. These themes can become the indispensable cores for perpetuating the movement, and this minimizes the one who is supposed to be at the center of it all. The effect is that men will move for the sake of being men, in the power of their brawn, and not for the sake of being Christ’s, and in the power of his might.
As Lindon has pointed out: The history of civilization back to the cross is a history of attacks on God’s word, the saints, and has included the feminization of not only the church but of Jesus Christ Himself. Certainly, it is one of Satan’s battle fronts in the war against the church, and is an attack on God’s hierarchy, order, and design; with emphasis draining power form the church any way that he can. The answer is not being a man for the sake of being a man, and rallying around a hormone.
As Mike has pointed out: The quest for both sexes is to be spirit-filled so that they can live by God’s design, and in God’s power. A genuine revival would include both, and is certainly needed today. It is not going to happen without obedience and prayer.
As David has pointed out: The materialization of these types groups can be a result of a void or vacuum in the local church, and so is a symptom of the modern church, and not the cure for it. The cure comes by repentance: confronting sin in our lives, and turning from it toward God, and relying on His strength for the victory. This action by men in the local church will change the local church. Pep rallies won’t do it.
Let me add: If there can be a profitable outcome from Christian men’s movement, it would be the training up of preachers of the gospel and pastors. Men who would go forth, and could say “And my speech and preaching not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1Cor. 2:4-5). It is a lament, a disgrace of the modern church, that with congregations running in the thousands their pastors, who teach them for years over several services a week, are unable to raise up preachers and pastors from these crowds: Men who could provide for healthy, local churches. But this lends to another topic.
If indeed we have out there Christian men who, at any time, have it in their hearts to separate themselves from things contrary to God, and to assemble to Glorify His name, seek His will, and worship Him; then we have, and are obliged to take, this small opportunity, in forums such at this one, to come alongside and minister to these brothers in Christ. That is what I have been fortunate to see here, godly men and women who are running the race, and fighting the fight, and taking time from their precious reserves, as master builders, and adding to that which will be tried, shown to be pure, and last forever. We are not beating the air here.
Any man who is seeking an answer, or to contribute, whether from GodMen or other such group, or no group, is welcome post on this topic
David
TheNewsBeats.com
Promise Keepers or this Godmen bunch largely keep Christianity within the four walls of their meetings, much like the church at large. What an impact it would be if they would dismiss one of their conferences and take a city, two by two, as the early disciples did, before their conference ended. Put their faith into shoe leather to witness the gospel to a lost and dying world. Instead, like someone mentioned earlier, much of both groups is like a pep rally atmosphere that is full of hoopla and very little substance.
Promise Keepers or this Godmen bunch largely keep Christianity within the four walls of their meetings, much like the church at large. What an impact it would be if they would dismiss one of their conferences and take a city, two by two, as the early disciples did, before their conference ended. Put their faith into shoe leather to witness the gospel to a lost and dying world. Instead, like someone mentioned earlier, much of both groups is like a pep rally atmosphere that is full of hoopla and very little substance.
More on the topic:
Jim at Watcher’s Lamp has posted this article: “The GODMEN: Solution or Symptom.”
http://watcherslamp.blogspot.com
/2007/03/godmen-solution-or-symptom.html
More on the topic:
Jim at Watcher’s Lamp has posted this article: “The GODMEN: Solution or Symptom.”
http://watcherslamp.blogspot.com
/2007/03/godmen-solution-or-symptom.html
Brad Stine speaks:
This is a link to video of Brad Stine interview on Fox News, Weekend Live from December 2006:
http://hotair.com
/archives/2006/12/10
/video-godmen-founder-brad-stine-on-manly-christianity/
This site also caries product adverstisements.
Brad Stine speaks:
This is a link to video of Brad Stine interview on Fox News, Weekend Live from December 2006:
http://hotair.com
/archives/2006/12/10
/video-godmen-founder-brad-stine-on-manly-christianity/
This site also caries product adverstisements.
A Godman responds:
Discernment must be based ultimately on the centrality of the biblical text and the integrity with which it has been handed down and properly interpreted by Spirit lead disciples. With that being said, much of the discussion centering on Godmen and its tongue in cheek engagement of the apparent disparagement of men in the church, is really seriously funny. What I mean is that, men like Brad Stine articulate their concern and discernment through the artistic grid of comedy which by its nature is full of exaggeration and even bravado. Why? Satire and humor generally take a look at the irony of life.
It is ironic that the church in the West has, due to it’s over reliance on rationalism made its worthy attempt at biblical integrity one that has kept the faith inside the head and outside the body ( body as in fleshly body). If I see Godmen as anything I see it as a movement that is allowing men to get back into their bodies. To get back into our bodies we must acknowledge that the Father created them for His purposes and that His creation is good. Fallen but good. This is another message I believe we at Godmen are articulating. Part of our welcoming of all to the table is not to water down doctrine or minimize the true nature of discipleship. In fact, those in leadership of Godmen as far as I can see want to raise the bar on what it means to be a disciple. To do that certain issues need to be on the table and certain modes of relating and interchange need to be ok. One is the ability to laugh at ourselves and the ability to see holiness go deeper than our rhetoric. For men this means a degree of honest banter and honest conversation. Maybe humor is the way we soften the power of life and in particular our sexuality but for men (this does not preclude this same issue facing women) how they navigate their masculinity impacts all of life. Who am I as a man? How do I interact with the world in light of my manhood and how does my faith form and inform that journey? These are all issues that many have offered up before and Godmen’s desire to walk along side Promise Keepers or John Eldridge is not to give blanket OK’s on all their insights and positions. It is merely to acknowledge that there is a good thing going on here when it comes to serving and loving men well. God is and will sort out the wheat from the chaff, the truth from the lies, and the sound from the unsound doctrine. We at Godmen not only assume we will be wrong on some issues we know we are and welcome the engagement.
One of the postures of the “New Adam” if I can use this phrase gingerly, is that he desires a format and context where the boundaries of faith are firm and yet porous. In other words, he hungers for a dialogue with other men who have gone before and maybe can offer up some knowledge. We are missing that exchange in our society where elders “want” to walk along side younger men and offer up their experience. However, the offering up of experience is not from a “specialist†position or one of perfection, power or control. In fact, it is the opposite. As broken limping leaders, older men must posture to younger that this life will be full of paradox, full of brokenness and yet this very life of salvation and sanctification is the loving way we are redeemed and made whole.
Is Godmen going further, deeper, wider? Well the hype always is a precursor to the hangmen’s rope. We are a group of men who are attempting to traverse this life together with integrity and honesty and a degree of healthy submission which is reflected in our respect and continued presence in this long obedience in the same direction. We welcome all to this conversation and we mean all. That means much discernment, much listening, much humbling and yet a lot of laughter, cerebration, and down right silliness along the journey.
To the silliness that proves to others that taking ourselves too seriously is a serous mistake!
David Bunker (Fellow Godmen)
A Godman responds:
Discernment must be based ultimately on the centrality of the biblical text and the integrity with which it has been handed down and properly interpreted by Spirit lead disciples. With that being said, much of the discussion centering on Godmen and its tongue in cheek engagement of the apparent disparagement of men in the church, is really seriously funny. What I mean is that, men like Brad Stine articulate their concern and discernment through the artistic grid of comedy which by its nature is full of exaggeration and even bravado. Why? Satire and humor generally take a look at the irony of life.
It is ironic that the church in the West has, due to it’s over reliance on rationalism made its worthy attempt at biblical integrity one that has kept the faith inside the head and outside the body ( body as in fleshly body). If I see Godmen as anything I see it as a movement that is allowing men to get back into their bodies. To get back into our bodies we must acknowledge that the Father created them for His purposes and that His creation is good. Fallen but good. This is another message I believe we at Godmen are articulating. Part of our welcoming of all to the table is not to water down doctrine or minimize the true nature of discipleship. In fact, those in leadership of Godmen as far as I can see want to raise the bar on what it means to be a disciple. To do that certain issues need to be on the table and certain modes of relating and interchange need to be ok. One is the ability to laugh at ourselves and the ability to see holiness go deeper than our rhetoric. For men this means a degree of honest banter and honest conversation. Maybe humor is the way we soften the power of life and in particular our sexuality but for men (this does not preclude this same issue facing women) how they navigate their masculinity impacts all of life. Who am I as a man? How do I interact with the world in light of my manhood and how does my faith form and inform that journey? These are all issues that many have offered up before and Godmen’s desire to walk along side Promise Keepers or John Eldridge is not to give blanket OK’s on all their insights and positions. It is merely to acknowledge that there is a good thing going on here when it comes to serving and loving men well. God is and will sort out the wheat from the chaff, the truth from the lies, and the sound from the unsound doctrine. We at Godmen not only assume we will be wrong on some issues we know we are and welcome the engagement.
One of the postures of the “New Adam” if I can use this phrase gingerly, is that he desires a format and context where the boundaries of faith are firm and yet porous. In other words, he hungers for a dialogue with other men who have gone before and maybe can offer up some knowledge. We are missing that exchange in our society where elders “want” to walk along side younger men and offer up their experience. However, the offering up of experience is not from a “specialist†position or one of perfection, power or control. In fact, it is the opposite. As broken limping leaders, older men must posture to younger that this life will be full of paradox, full of brokenness and yet this very life of salvation and sanctification is the loving way we are redeemed and made whole.
Is Godmen going further, deeper, wider? Well the hype always is a precursor to the hangmen’s rope. We are a group of men who are attempting to traverse this life together with integrity and honesty and a degree of healthy submission which is reflected in our respect and continued presence in this long obedience in the same direction. We welcome all to this conversation and we mean all. That means much discernment, much listening, much humbling and yet a lot of laughter, cerebration, and down right silliness along the journey.
To the silliness that proves to others that taking ourselves too seriously is a serous mistake!
David Bunker (Fellow Godmen)
David Bunker,
Thank you for commenting in this small forum, and contributing your first-hand knowledge. Your commentary touches on more points that I have time to respond to, but I would like to touch on a few of them which are centered on the goals, format, and direction of Godmen.
If the leadership at Godmen (GM) desires to “raise the bar on what it means to be a disciple,” I believe that these few observations will assist them in that goal:
1) GM should take more seriously their association with Promise Keepers. While it may not be their intention to “give blanket OK’s on all their [Promise Keepers] insights and positions,” the change in status from innocent bystander to accomplice is made as soon as leadership is informed of PK’s positions which are in conflict with the Bible (e.g. the article you are responding to here at TheNewsBeats.com). This change in status also applies to as many members who likewise become so informed.
2) GM should adhere to the biblical methods of ministering. GM’s format of edification based on older men sharing their “experience,” and which consists of “dialogue” instead of didactic teaching, and “broken limping leaders” instead of mature men who walk strong and stand fast in the faith; is a menu that will put too much mush on the plate and not enough meat for men. Compare your assertion that the older members should not contribute “from a ‘specialists’ position or one of perfection, power or control” (but as the “limping leaders”) with Christ’s provision:
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:11-13)
The perfecting of the saints is to be the ongoing process, not to be disdained when evidenced in maturity, and older men who counsel younger men at the least should be capable teachers of the Word. The reason this is critical for Godmen, or any Christian organization, is for unity of the faith, knowledge of the Son, and to become a perfected man; grown up and matured in the faith. And there is another very important incentive for utilizing our Lords provision for training up men in the faith, and it is one which points out that there is no neutral in the walk of faith:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (Eph 4:14-15)
If men are going to “grow up,” they can’t be stymied by false doctrines, misled by false prophets, and deceived by men of cunning craftiness, and this is exactly what will happen when doctrine is not central to an assembly, and such “specialists” as teachers and pastors aren’t welcome.
3) GM should not use terms derived from the Bible in a sense that they are misapplied to the extent that they could confuse or even contradict scripture. To use the term “New Adam” to describe Christian men who are posturing is perhaps indicative that there is a need for a change in focus. In providing the means for men to be born again, God did not make a way to create a new Fleshy Man. In Adam all die; only in Christ can we be made alive: “the last Adam was made a quickening spirit” (1Cor. 15:45; emphasis added); for “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” (1Cor. 15:50). God sent His Son to die in our place, and He raised Him on the third day, so that we could become new creatures (2 Cor. 5:17), spiritually reborn (1Pet. 1:23). The emphasis, for the Christian, is on the new spiritual man, who is by the way at war with the old man of the flesh “which is corrupt according to deceitful lusts” (Eph. 4:22).
4) GM should revise any goal that can be phrased: “We are a group of men who are attempting to traverse this life together with integrity and honesty and a degree of healthy submission which is reflected in our respect and continued presence in this long obedience in the same direction.”
I would like to point out that this can be a dangerous mission statement. In all of this action of “submission,” and “respect,” and “obedience” there is a distinct absence of proper nouns. Drilling these men for subservience and obedience within a group without maintaining a clear object of your faith for this mode of behavior makes men ripe for covert manipulation from behind the scenes, and primed for overt subjugation under a dictatorship when a personality should take the stage.
Additionally, the idea of “attempting to traverse this life” is an example of misplaced emphasis for the Christian; it implies surviving an obstacle course for that purpose alone. It would be far easier, and much more profitable, to adhere to the Apostle Paul’s analogous language, wherein he used several comparisons to physical contests, if men are to be moved by grappling and striving. Here, note an emphasis on a point, or goal, for Christian victory:
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. (1Co 9:24-25)
5) In all, GM’s constitution sounds too vague, and unnecessarily so. This leads me to point out another danger, which is for the leadership. Anyone assuming this role of leading men y must not do so lightly, and merely for the sake of celebrating comedy, enjoying satire, or exploring sexuality. Though you use much self effacement, leaders will be accounted a shepherds nonetheless; they will be held to a higher standard, and a determination will be made as to their genuineness. Remember these words from our Lord to Peter, who had answered in the affirmative that he loved the Lord, and to which Jesus replied : “feed my sheep” (Joh. 21:16). GM must not only provide milk for the young, but they must also strive to get them on a diet of meat else they be subject to reproof as follows:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb 5:12-14)
If GM takes to leading Christian men, this is the format acceptable. I am sure the leaders there would not want the following to be the assessment made of them by our Lord, and the resulting disposition:
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 24:45-51)
I do not mean this scripture a critisim of GM, or raise it because it applies to the organization. I reference it for one of the same reasons our Lord reveled this prophecy to us: as a waring.
In closing this small exchange between Christain men, I leave off with this admonishment: “Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong” (1Co 16:13). Never let us lose sight of the fact that we are at war, and we are to “war a good warfare” (1Tim 1:18), and that “though we walk in the flesh, we not not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)” (2Co 10: 4-5):
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (Eph 6:12-20)
Men, it doesn’t get any more manly than that! I hope that this exchange may bear fruit; that in some small way GM is hereby encouraged to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jud 1:3).
David
TheNewsBeats.com
David Bunker,
Thank you for commenting in this small forum, and contributing your first-hand knowledge. Your commentary touches on more points that I have time to respond to, but I would like to touch on a few of them which are centered on the goals, format, and direction of Godmen.
If the leadership at Godmen (GM) desires to “raise the bar on what it means to be a disciple,” I believe that these few observations will assist them in that goal:
1) GM should take more seriously their association with Promise Keepers. While it may not be their intention to “give blanket OK’s on all their [Promise Keepers] insights and positions,” the change in status from innocent bystander to accomplice is made as soon as leadership is informed of PK’s positions which are in conflict with the Bible (e.g. the article you are responding to here at TheNewsBeats.com). This change in status also applies to as many members who likewise become so informed.
2) GM should adhere to the biblical methods of ministering. GM’s format of edification based on older men sharing their “experience,” and which consists of “dialogue” instead of didactic teaching, and “broken limping leaders” instead of mature men who walk strong and stand fast in the faith; is a menu that will put too much mush on the plate and not enough meat for men. Compare your assertion that the older members should not contribute “from a ‘specialists’ position or one of perfection, power or control” (but as the “limping leaders”) with Christ’s provision:
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:11-13)
The perfecting of the saints is to be the ongoing process, not to be disdained when evidenced in maturity, and older men who counsel younger men at the least should be capable teachers of the Word. The reason this is critical for Godmen, or any Christian organization, is for unity of the faith, knowledge of the Son, and to become a perfected man; grown up and matured in the faith. And there is another very important incentive for utilizing our Lords provision for training up men in the faith, and it is one which points out that there is no neutral in the walk of faith:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (Eph 4:14-15)
If men are going to “grow up,” they can’t be stymied by false doctrines, misled by false prophets, and deceived by men of cunning craftiness, and this is exactly what will happen when doctrine is not central to an assembly, and such “specialists” as teachers and pastors aren’t welcome.
3) GM should not use terms derived from the Bible in a sense that they are misapplied to the extent that they could confuse or even contradict scripture. To use the term “New Adam” to describe Christian men who are posturing is perhaps indicative that there is a need for a change in focus. In providing the means for men to be born again, God did not make a way to create a new Fleshy Man. In Adam all die; only in Christ can we be made alive: “the last Adam was made a quickening spirit” (1Cor. 15:45; emphasis added); for “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” (1Cor. 15:50). God sent His Son to die in our place, and He raised Him on the third day, so that we could become new creatures (2 Cor. 5:17), spiritually reborn (1Pet. 1:23). The emphasis, for the Christian, is on the new spiritual man, who is by the way at war with the old man of the flesh “which is corrupt according to deceitful lusts” (Eph. 4:22).
4) GM should revise any goal that can be phrased: “We are a group of men who are attempting to traverse this life together with integrity and honesty and a degree of healthy submission which is reflected in our respect and continued presence in this long obedience in the same direction.”
I would like to point out that this can be a dangerous mission statement. In all of this action of “submission,” and “respect,” and “obedience” there is a distinct absence of proper nouns. Drilling these men for subservience and obedience within a group without maintaining a clear object of your faith for this mode of behavior makes men ripe for covert manipulation from behind the scenes, and primed for overt subjugation under a dictatorship when a personality should take the stage.
Additionally, the idea of “attempting to traverse this life” is an example of misplaced emphasis for the Christian; it implies surviving an obstacle course for that purpose alone. It would be far easier, and much more profitable, to adhere to the Apostle Paul’s analogous language, wherein he used several comparisons to physical contests, if men are to be moved by grappling and striving. Here, note an emphasis on a point, or goal, for Christian victory:
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. (1Co 9:24-25)
5) In all, GM’s constitution sounds too vague, and unnecessarily so. This leads me to point out another danger, which is for the leadership. Anyone assuming this role of leading men y must not do so lightly, and merely for the sake of celebrating comedy, enjoying satire, or exploring sexuality. Though you use much self effacement, leaders will be accounted a shepherds nonetheless; they will be held to a higher standard, and a determination will be made as to their genuineness. Remember these words from our Lord to Peter, who had answered in the affirmative that he loved the Lord, and to which Jesus replied : “feed my sheep” (Joh. 21:16). GM must not only provide milk for the young, but they must also strive to get them on a diet of meat else they be subject to reproof as follows:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb 5:12-14)
If GM takes to leading Christian men, this is the format acceptable. I am sure the leaders there would not want the following to be the assessment made of them by our Lord, and the resulting disposition:
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 24:45-51)
I do not mean this scripture a critisim of GM, or raise it because it applies to the organization. I reference it for one of the same reasons our Lord reveled this prophecy to us: as a waring.
In closing this small exchange between Christain men, I leave off with this admonishment: “Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong” (1Co 16:13). Never let us lose sight of the fact that we are at war, and we are to “war a good warfare” (1Tim 1:18), and that “though we walk in the flesh, we not not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)” (2Co 10: 4-5):
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (Eph 6:12-20)
Men, it doesn’t get any more manly than that! I hope that this exchange may bear fruit; that in some small way GM is hereby encouraged to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jud 1:3).
David
TheNewsBeats.com
I am actually quite surprised that men are rejecting ‘feminization’ of anything…since the feminine is defined as strength, endurance, leadership, etc…
I am actually quite surprised that men are rejecting ‘feminization’ of anything…since the feminine is defined as strength, endurance, leadership, etc…